Curse

TideSwayer · Aug 11, 2005, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Currently I think PvE is set up ALL wrong. PvE is set up mainly as a means to unlock stuff rather than an explorable world where people can build unique characters and actually have fun. What we have now is some lame-ass shield mission-to-shield mission action quest rather than an explorable RPG. I would like ANet to seriously think about their lame attempt at a PvE world and give serious concessions to those of us who want to make unique character builds and walk around the world, instead of being practically forced to form a party of tanks, nukers, and healers everywhere we go. You can't. Monsters deal too much damage, in the later zones there are way too many of them in mobs with terrible aggro implementation (attack one and 35 others come to their aid from all over the damn zone), and god forbid you want to actually set up a build using enchantments or stuff like that, as they will just get stripped 5 seconds later anyways by some random mob. You are forced to bring a tank to distract the monsters' attention, a nuker to hit large groups from far away, and a healer to constantly keep healing allies from all the damage they take. This game doesn't allow anything else.

This game (talking about PvE here) IMO is much better in ANet's theory than the implementation that they have set up for it. I like having around 80 skills per class. I like having multi-class characters and the ability to power up various attributes of my choice. I don't like that I really can't set up any non-cookie-cutter build and get more than two feet with it in a PvE zone.

For example, many skills given to us are enchantments. Basic characters aren't powerful enough, energy-wise, health-wise, or power-wise to deal with large mobs, so we as players like to cast enchantments to boost our builds. Here's the freaking problem with PvE enchantment builds: 5 seconds later some random monster in almost EVERY zone now just rips your build apart by taking those enchantments away. Nevermind the enchantment recast either, as you'll be busy using those precious energy points to heal up the damage that has been done to you or dealing damage in a desperate attempt to be the last one standing (however many deaths it may take to wipe out a mob). Why not let us have the freedom to actually get things done with non-standard builds? Enchantments are 10-15 energy cost on average to cast, and the monsters just wipe them away seconds later. Thanks a lot, for giving us miniscule amounts of energy overall and for having every mob in PvE nowadays have enchantment-stripping ability. Really GREAT way to allow for uniqueness in character types, right?

I don't think the problem with GW PvE is the fact that there are farming spots, or certain builds out there that allow one to farm for items. I think the underlying issue which I wish more people would have a problem with (so ANet would actually make these PvE concessions for us) is that there isn't ENOUGH farming possibilities. The whole idea of a PvE world is to be able to have a role and be able to play it. The only roles allowed to us are tanks, nukers, and healers. I don't care that there are bots out there. I don't care that people spend the real-life money they earn on gold they want to use to buy some useless item that can be found in a similar fashion in 20 minutes. I do care that the only way to have fun in this game is to use basic, age-old character types instead of the unique possibilities that originally sucked me (and probably alot of other players too) into the GW mix.

GW PvE, as it is now, is nothing more than a trojan horse for PvP. Some people like me have no interest in PvP'ing and just want to mess around with unique skillbars and be able to walk around the damn world using a - get this ANet, it's coming and you know it - VARIETY of play styles. GW is a young game and it still has time to grow. I'd like to see PvE evolve into it's own entity rather than mainly serving as an unlocking system for PvP.

Thoughts?

JMadisonIV · Aug 11, 2005, 04:21 AM // 04:21

I'll respond completely after reading your post fully...

but off the top of my head, just answering your title...

I think most of the discouraging of unique builds and playstyles comes from the Playerbase, who are all set in their ways of "you HAVE to have this, this and this to be successful".

I am a Melee-Built Mesmer/warrior. you can only imagine how long it takes me to get a group.

JMadisonIV · Aug 11, 2005, 04:30 AM // 04:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by TideSwayer

GW PvE, as it is now, is nothing more than a trojan horse for PvP. Some people like me have no interest in PvP'ing and just want to mess around with unique skillbars and be able to walk around the damn world using a - get this ANet, it's coming and you know it - VARIETY of play styles. GW is a young game and it still has time to grow. I'd like to see PvE evolve into it's own entity rather than mainly serving as an unlocking system for PvP.

Thoughts?

This I agree with wholeheartedly.

I can't stand the arrogant "PvP is all that matters, PvE means nothing, and if you don't want to do 8vs8 Pvp for hours on end then you are playing the wrong game" attitude that is prevalent among the playerbase.

I've played some PvP here, and honestly, I am not really impressed(but then again, I never was fond of small-scale PvP. I am a Siege fan). i don't really see anything there that would make me want to stay in Tombs or Hall of Heroes for hours on end.

I like the PvE aspect of this game, and I hope that ANet decides to expand on it, and not just make it a warmup for PvP. make the PvE portion of the game a outstanding experience in its own right.

TopGun · Aug 11, 2005, 04:56 AM // 04:56

N/W Here... Is a blood-sucking flaming-sword slashing vampire warrior not unique to you? Bah, fine.

I disagree with you. I can have 3 different playstyles for every profession I choose. So my N/W has a shot at 3 different playstyles- right? Wrong- you need to use permutations to figure out how many different playstyles one has, for I can be Blood/Sword specced OR Blood/Hammer specced, etc... unfortunately, it is VERY difficult to calculate EXACTLY how many different combos there are to choose from, because order only matters with the primary class in mind. If I spec using pure secondary or pure primary, things get messy.

Anyway, there are TONS of combos to try- how many have you given a shot? I know that my build changes to knockdowns with hammers, and I have less energy to use, as I have no offhand weapon. If I spec Death, I become efficient in large-scale PvE, but can't solo. If I spec Blood, I become an efficient soloing force, but large scale PvE, I'm just another nuker. Curses? When combined with a Mesmer secondary, every monster gets spanked with a few degen arrows- while the nukers focus one target, the other is taking damage, so when the nukers get to him, he's only at half health. Boohyah. I could go through all my builds for you, but that's just stupid, you get the point.

So, I must ask, what class have you been playing to make you think that PvE lacks variety?

But as far as the missions go... blah, the plot sucked and the acting was awful, which really made for some bad PvE times. =( With a guild, harder stuff can be fun.

Aug 11, 2005, 05:13 AM // 05:13

It's because PvE is incredibly easy and stupid. So monk+war+ele with even the worst kind of builds are eventually going to make it through.

If they actually made mobs work somewhat together-expanding on Avacara mobs-and actually stop giving them shit skills PvE would actually be hard. Make a mob with an Ele that uses Ward against Melee or Air Gank and watch more than half the PvE players quit.

Phades · Aug 11, 2005, 05:14 AM // 05:14

As an alternative, they could just fix the poor npc skills that allow the players to just roll over them effortlessly.

TideSwayer · Aug 11, 2005, 05:23 AM // 05:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopGun

So, I must ask, what class have you been playing to make you think that PvE lacks variety?

I never said the game lacked variety. I said that the game doesn't allow for it. Let me use an example from tonight's PvE that pushed me over the edge to make this topic:

I was a monk for my group in Ember Light Camp. Since I was carrying two cap signets I wanted to be a little creative and cast Essence Bond on my two group's tanks (to quickly recharge energy for healing spells) and Divine Boon on myself to boost each heal. However, every damn mob we ran into all three of my enchantments got killed. I had to keep recasting the stuff to even keep what I was trying to do, but at 10 mana each it was more trouble than it was worth because I also had to help with the healing (we had another monk in our group as well). I would've had a lot more success not casting any enchantments at all and just spellcasting, which pretty much kills the idea of having fun with my skillset.

I want to be able to use Essence Bond in more than the 2 melee-only areas left in PvE without me having to recast it every 15 seconds. I wanted to get creative and have a little fun, but every mob nowadays has to kill your enchantments quick. The same crap was happening to me yesterday in Witman's Folly (the Grawl were stripping my enchantments) so I basically had to say screw it and make a standard healing-spell only build.

My question to ANet is, if you were just going to throw enchantment-stripping mobs everywhere in the PvE world, why the hell did you even make enchantments available in the first place? You can't even use them for any decent length of time without having to recast them. How am I supposed to have any fun with enchantments (monk enchantments really set up some unique possibilities) if I can't ever keep them up long enough to have a significant effect or have to waste 2/3 of my total energy to even get them back up?

PvE really sucks sometimes, and those times are when you aren't using a cookie-cutter build. The fact that I'm trying to be creative with my skillset and having less success than just using basic spells are completely what's wrong with this game. Why bother experimenting when almost every mob in the late-game PvE world has the anti-experiment travelling with them? LET ME HAVE SOME DAMN FUN WITH SOME OF THESE SKILLS I GRINDED FOR, OKAY?

I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that PvE isn't all that fun because of this. Seriously. There has to be a better counter for enemy mobs to use than just ripping every enchantment to shreds in seconds. Is killing farming really worth killing the fun of playing PvE overall, ANet? Seriously. Step back and think about it. Who cares about money because by the time Chapter 2 comes out the only players who WON'T have max $$$ in their accounts will be those who grow disenchanted (pardon the pun, lol) with not being able to experiment and stop playing altogether.

Arturo02 · Aug 11, 2005, 06:23 AM // 06:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

It's because PvE is incredibly easy and stupid. So monk+war+ele with even the worst kind of builds are eventually going to make it through.

If they actually made mobs work somewhat together-expanding on Avacara mobs-and actually stop giving them shit skills PvE would actually be hard. Make a mob with an Ele that uses Ward against Melee or Air Gank and watch more than half the PvE players quit.

I have yet to see a game that addressed monster AI and programmed it to actually be a challenge for people.

Aug 11, 2005, 06:41 AM // 06:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

I have yet to see a game that addressed monster AI and programmed it to actually be a challenge for people.

This game has excellent AI.

Arturo02 · Aug 11, 2005, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

This game has excellent AI.

I stand corrected.

Siren · Aug 11, 2005, 08:08 AM // 08:08

I read the OP's argument and can't help but wonder why I only see mentions of Tanks, Nukers, and Healers, and then dissertations on how the game limits creativity because enchantments keep getting stripped.

Where would Necromancers and Mesmers fall into your categories? Tanks? Nukers? Healers? What about Rangers?

You want to avoid getting your enchantments stripped/shattered/drained? Get nice with a Mesmer. Or a Necromancer. Or a Ranger. Try that before saying the game needs to be changed. Mesmers and Necros are the deadliest, most effective characters in the game when played competently, especially in the PvE contexts you're talking about.

If I'm reading your post correctly, I think the conclusion is pretty obvious:

You're getting beat by simple counters because you're using simple builds.

Necro Blood magic. Necro Curses magic. Mesmer Domination. Mesmer Illusion. Ranger Marksmanship. Ranger Expertise.

Those all have interrupts and/or shutdowns.

cup-o-noodles · Aug 11, 2005, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Quote:

...rather than an explorable world...

I agree with most of the OP's post. The amont of explorability in this game is like zero. It's just do a mission, get to another city, do another mission and get to another city, so on and so forth. You can't just step out the gate and wonder around, maybe stumble across somthing cool looking. Now I don't think you should just be able to do this freely and without a fight, but the ability to do it with a unique build or a build you just plain old like is imposible. My favorite parts of this game have been:
First, Preasearing. It was awsome I just ran around exploring everything I could killing all sorts of monsters in my wake. It's not like I was invinceable and never died, but it was posible to just freely explore and have fun.

Second, whenever I stumble across some sort of monument or statue. It's just awsome, brings back makes the world seem explorable, and like there's a reason to explore. I remember running into a statue of Mellandru on my way to magumma stade, and a Glint statue some where in the desert. And I didn't even find those on my own, I had a full party both times.

I suppose I would even care wether or not I need a whole party to do stuff with if I could run into more cool things like this.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Aug 11, 2005, 08:42 AM // 08:42

I don't know if it's the PVE setup that discourages unique builds but I do agree with JMadison that it's the playerbase itself that discourages unique builds. Just go to the strategy forums and you'll see heated debates whenever some unconventional build threads such as melee Ranger pop up.

Too many people scream at each other on what should and shouldnt be done. And if you don't follow the herd, you're a "noob"

Shadow_Avenger · Aug 11, 2005, 08:52 AM // 08:52

I tend to agree with the OP.
Tanks, Wiz and Heallers in the so called holy trinity of MMORPG games, as they are really the only classes you need to beat the game.
Other classes are available but the holy trinity still is predominant and is one of the main reasons behind all the people moaning about being unable to get a group with their M/W etc.
You can use any class / skill combo you want, but depending on how diverse you make your character, will also determine if you mainly use the Henchmen.
The OP's main point still stands in respect to the fact you need a full party to go anywhere in the game, with either henchies or human group members.
There are a few, very few l33t solo builds, but these builds do not encourage variety in you character / play style.
After pre searing, the game become strickly formular. Lets hope the summer update helps resolve some off the PvE issues.

snepp · Aug 11, 2005, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Make a mob with an Ele that uses Ward against Melee or Air Gank and watch more than half the PvE players quit.

The elem stone boss outside Ascalon uses ward against melee.

TideSwayer · Aug 11, 2005, 11:28 AM // 11:28

Serious question here: do you guys think there's enough energy to go around for PvE? Most spells are double-digit energy to cast and the average player has around 40 energy total with 4 regen ticks or less. This game, IMO, just doesn't allow for many skill combos to be played with that little energy. The 1 minute break between mob battles that parties take because they have to recharge their miniscule energy totals is pretty lame and would be decreased if there were more energy to play around with or there were more energy regen ticks to go around.

Low energy may work for PvP, but in PvE I'd certainly appreciate a little more freedom to play around with spells more frequently. I really wish PvP and PvE didn't play by the same rules. For only 8 slots on your skillbar (and in the late game usually 1 or 2 of THOSE are taken up by cap sigs - for some lame-ass skill cap that doesn't even fit your build anyways), the average spell isn't powerful enough or last long enough to even bother bringing as part of your 8-slot skillset. Some of these recharge times are outrageous as well. 45-second recharges for a spell that lasts maybe 7 seconds and has some miniscule effect? Not in your life would I be carrying that to fight these big mobs late in the game. Maybe in PvP it works, but in PvE I wish spells had a bit of a boost to them. Everything in PvE comes down to basic gameplay because the game is so damn limiting overall.

40 energy = 4x 10 energy casts then using your lame wand while you wait for energy to recharge. Oh boy. How the hell did they decide on 8 slots and minimum energy totals for characters?

Numa Pompilius · Aug 11, 2005, 11:40 AM // 11:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by snepp

The elem stone boss outside Ascalon uses ward against melee.

As do White Mantle. Not that it helps them much. What they'd really need is ward against MAGIC.

Enchantment stripping has become more common because of W/Mo and Mo/W bots using enchantments.

The OP is complaining about not being able to use a unique build, but it's fundamentally the same approach every lame-ass W/Mo | Mo/W farmer has ever used -put up enchantments and go to town- and gets countered for that very reason. There's nothing so un-unique as enchantments.

Personally I think the increased enchantment stripping is good. It at least slightly balances the fact that PvE is so unbelievably easy provided you're a primary or secondary monk. Even with the increased enchantment stripping monks still tank better than any other class, do more damage than any class except elementalists and perhaps rangers, have unlimited rez, and more effective healing than any other class.

As for exploration - have you guys actually TRIED? There's huge areas to explore. For example you never get to Dragons Gullet or the Icetooth Cave area without exploring. Yeah, I'd like for there to be more too, but saying that there's zero explorable areas is just silly.

Kampfkeks · Aug 11, 2005, 11:44 AM // 11:44

I am pro enchantment removal and contra at the same time.

Some enchantments do make up for some really unstoppable fortress (105 monk anyone?). Really, what is going to stop those boosted invincible monks smiting the hell out of mobs when they can't really take damage... Same goes with the typical Wa/Mo farming Build abusing Cyclone Axe and Live Vicariously/Vigorous Spirit. This combinations are all heavily based on enchantment and achieve something close to invulnerability. Allowing them to easily farm locations and screw the economy all over. Thus either the enchantments have to be removed or the enemies have to do some kind of different damage.The first solution was the more easy solution and so, a lot of exploited mobs have gotten enchantment removal.
I do understand that and agree to it... however...

On the other hand it is annoying as hell. You go somewhere and want to try something out only to get smashed within seconds. Not because it wouldn't maybe work, but because you get all your enchantments handed back to you in seconds and numbers of hefty damage. See the Mesmer IW Skill. What exactly is its purpose? In PVP it will get removed asap... thats ok but in PVE it will get removed as well. So what is its purpose. The second you cast it... it gets removed... uhm great thingie, and thats called an elite spell...

About Exploration:
There are tons of places to explore for you. So it is possible to explore, but i do understand the problem about that. There is not a single reward in doing so. I'd want some kind of improved exploration where you can find some places and enter them only via exploration. Let's say the only entrance into the underworld would be the shrine in Lornars Pass. So you would have to form a party, fight your way there and enter the underworld without the option on changing your party at all. (Great way to stop 105' Monkeys drop dead in the tracks... without removing even more enchantments

).
See what i mean? You have to form a party and fight your way somewhere where you can discover some odd place or a catacomb.. and without entering another Outpost you would enter it with the same party you've gotten there.

Thats what i understand as exploration. Not just the visiting of areas with no real purpose but to allow runners through

Mithie · Aug 11, 2005, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by TideSwayer

Serious question here: do you guys think there's enough energy to go around for PvE? Most spells are double-digit energy to cast and the average player has around 40 energy total with 4 regen ticks or less. This game, IMO, just doesn't allow for many skill combos to be played with that little energy.

40 energy with 4 regen is more than enough.

Quote:

The 1 minute break between mob battles that parties take because they have to recharge their miniscule energy totals is pretty lame and would be decreased if there were more energy to play around with or there were more energy regen ticks to go around.

Not really... Usually, most parties take a 4 or 5 second pause between each battle to let the monk recharge. 10 seconds if it was a big battle. 15 seconds if somebody died and had to be ressed.

Quote:

Low energy may work for PvP, but in PvE I'd certainly appreciate a little more freedom to play around with spells more frequently.

You have plenty of freedom.

Quote:

I really wish PvP and PvE didn't play by the same rules. For only 8 slots on your skillbar (and in the late game usually 1 or 2 of THOSE are taken up by cap sigs

There's no point in carrying more than 1 cap sig. Also, do your research on what elite is present in the mission and how it'll fit on your skillbar before deciding to carry ANY cap sigs at ALL

Quote:

- for some lame-ass skill cap that doesn't even fit your build anyways),

Then don't cap it.

Quote:

the average spell isn't powerful enough or last long enough to even bother bringing as part of your 8-slot skillset. Some of these recharge times are outrageous as well. 45-second recharges for a spell that lasts maybe 7 seconds and has some miniscule effect?

Example? Usually, if you have the linked attribute up, the effect for those short duration spells are quite dramatic.

Yeah, I'd love to have the ability to run 33% faster AND block incoming shots (dodge) for 20 seconds at a time... but that'll make the game way too easy.

Quote:

Not in your life would I be carrying that to fight these big mobs late in the game.

Then maybe that's why you're having trouble.

Quote:

40 energy = 4x 10 energy casts then using your lame wand while you wait for energy to recharge. Oh boy. How the hell did they decide on 8 slots and minimum energy totals for characters?

This is called ENERGY MANAGEMENT... every class combo has one or two of these skills to help you. If you can't manage your energy, then you'll have severe stamina problems even with 100 energy. The 8 slot limit ensures that no one person in any party can play out a dominating force for killing EVERYTHING.

Look, the bottom line is this: Guild Wars is a team game. There's no one build that can do everything at once. Bringing an enchantment heavy build without a shutdown mesmer or a distraction/savage ranger IS NOT going to work. Likewise, filling all 8 of your elementalist slots with pure damage spells without a method for energy management IS NOT GOING going to work. You load up your elementalist with firestorm, meteor shower, and 6 other direct damage spells, you go out there, cast 3, and find yourself unable to do anything because you're dry with 2 chunks of exhaustion, you have only yourself to blame.

ALL builds have strengths and weaknesses. Playing your build in a team that can cover your weaknesses is the smart thing to do.

As for those PUG leaders that think only Wars Ele's and Monk's are the only classes in the game, then they're probably going to fail the mission ANYWAY.

Mesmerized · Aug 11, 2005, 11:52 AM // 11:52

Ooh ooh! Ok this goes out to all the casters out there!!! Ok! Isn't it fun, to go out into the Shiverpeaks above Copperhammer (on the way to citadel) and get hit with 7 Mind Freeze in a matter of 3 seconds? Oh! And afterwards, a few Ice Spikes, and the occasional 2 Maelstroms? Boy oh boy, that sure makes my frown turn upsidedown!